How Should Marketers Use AI in 2025? (with Dan Nestle)

Scott: Hello, and welcome to the show today. You will hear the advice of marketing communications and AI expert. Dan Nessel. After another year of AI news, trends, and innovations, what can content marketers learn from it all? And what should they be doing with AI in 2025? Let's discuss. My name is Scott Murray, and this is the Content Brief.

Where I bring you the key points and takeaways from conversations with today's experts and humanized and innovative content. Every time you hear this sound That's a key takeaway from today's episode. Let's get started

Thanks for joining me today Before we get started today, I just wanted to let you know, this is the last episode of the content brief for 2024, but the show will return on January 22nd, 2025. Dan Nessel is an award winning communications executive and recognized communications technology leader who has built and led marketing and communications functions across a variety of industries.

As the Chief Curiosity Officer for Inquisitive Communications, a business he launched earlier this year, he offers retained, project, and contract based AI and strategic communications advisory services. This includes generative AI enablement workshops, AI power hour mentoring, and communication strategy technology and AI accelerated content strategy coaching for leaders.

He's joining us today to discuss how businesses should use AI as part of a content marketing strategy in 2025. Now you don't need to listen to this podcast to hear that AI is a big deal these days, but it's been interesting to watch just in the last year how people are talking about it, and some of the good and bad things that have come out of it all.

I mean, maybe bad things isn't the right word or right phrase. Maybe it's, um, good and not so good things. But one of the things I think about is how when I was at Content Marketing World, not this last one, but the one before that conference, they had a speaker, I think she was from Google, and it was kind of interesting to hear her talk because she was pointing out how AI has been doing stuff for a long time, we just now, as kind of the general public, have figured it out and started messing with it, and I think ever since ChatGPT became a thing, that's where it all took off, and it's been interesting watching what's happened ever since then.

So, We have all kinds of people testing it and trying new and unique things. We've seen people make mistakes by letting it do too much or perhaps too little. We've seen people do crazy things like let AI write an entire book and they just slap their name on it. Or maybe they let it write a whole blog post and slap their name on it.

And we've even seen companies try to Create their own GPT or manipulate some sort of AI and incorporate into their business in some way, something that makes sense and maybe something that doesn't really mean much, but still, it just enables them to call themselves an AI business or a business that uses AI is kind of a buzzword or check us out, we're this hip company using AI, which everybody loves.

There's all kinds of stuff going on, but I think as we head into next year, we're going to see more optimization. From AI. I mean, there's still gonna be people that are using it recklessly or maybe in lazy ways, but I think we are going to see some optimization. And since we're about to go into a new year, I thought that was as good a place as any to start talking with Dan about where he saw things going.

Dan: It's an interesting time for sure. Now it's hard to believe that chat GPT is only two years old and it, the progress or the regress, I don't know if you want to, which way you want to call it, that it's made into our lives and into our professional lives for sure is, is just uncharitable, I think, but generally speaking, you know, really caught fire this year.

Not necessarily because of like new developments or changes in the technology. It's more like. Fundamental use cases that started with chat GPT are finally catching on in a wider level. And by that, I mean like your basic stuff, like it can do my writing for me and it can do my emails for me. And, and boy, I can ask it about recipes, you know, whatever things like this.

Um, and that is, I think the vast majority of folks are doing that or the people who are using it are doing that. And then there's this like tip of the spear of people who are really pushing. Um, in all different industries and all different sectors and they're taking advantage of some, maybe not all of the bells and whistles that that seem to come out almost every day and not just with chat GPT, but with this, with the other platforms as well with cloud Gemini, um, chat GPT, but it is just sort of unstoppable.

It's interesting. I feel like we may have hit a point. Plateau certainly heading down towards the trough of disillusionment, um, according to the Gartner Hype Cycle for more of the mass public adoption, um, but companies, organizations are at the point where they kind of understand that they need it or they should get on board, they just don't know how.

Scott: And hopefully that's going to be the way that many companies optimize AI is they're going to figure out how, or the best way to use it. They're not going to over rely on it or under rely on it, because here's the thing, the companies may still be trying to figure some things out, but the consumers, the content consumers have started to figure out when a company is using AI and when they're not.

And when you're talking about a modern day human consumer. That is already cynical about brand intentions and marketing intentions and marketing experiences. The last thing you want to do is add another layer by making AI do things that tell them that you're now using AI to communicate with them because you're just looking for the quickest way to the sale.

The quickest way to check a box or the quickest way to get a piece of marketing content out the door and not help them. My colleague, Marcus Sheridan, has already started to tell people that consumers have a BS meter and AI is going to be incorporated into that BS meter. So Dan agrees that you need to consider savvy and judgmental consumers as you learn how to incorporate AI into your business.

Dan: I think we have to give the human race credit here for being really good at sniffing out bulls t and at spotting things that just simply are lazy. Lazy approaches to anything, um, cutting corners, you know, people don't appreciate, certainly, I think in the U. S. markets, there's a certain resentment that starts to build when people have it too easy, you know, to do anything.

And when you start to say, in the ever evolving landscape, or, you know, forget what the phrase is, but, um, you know, when all of your blog posts start to look that way, The consumers of that content will ultimately say, these are lazy people. They don't care about me. They're not, they don't care about their own content, how they're going to care about me.

Um, and it's certainly not written for me. It's not written with me in mind. It's just done to fill space. And it's dull. As Mark Schaefer says, the pandemic of dull, uh, is upon us. So it is dangerous that way for companies and for organizations to continue down that road. It's just going to continue to inundate us with Really, really bad content, um, with very generic content.

And that also speaks to the fact that there's this plateau people have gotten to where they feel like, okay, I get it now and they use it, but they clearly don't because they're generating the same dull crap all the time. That should tell you that maybe I should look into this a little bit more. And, um, am I really getting the most out of it that I can make maybe by prompt, or maybe I really should have better eyes on this, or maybe I need better editorial, there's a whole lot of questions that need to be answered.

Um, that, that I think lands squarely on the human part of this equation, not on the AI, that's a positive development for people who are afraid of, you know, job loss and things like this, because, you know, you, you have to be in it. Yeah. But at the same time, you know, you got to make sure that the content is good.

You know, it has to, it has to really land and resonate with your audience.

Scott: Yeah. I think the point about resonating with humans is really critical because here's the irony it's so easy as human beings to get so. Immersed and obsessed with the new technology or the shiny thing that we forget sometimes in the worst kind of ways to remember the humanity and everything, because that's the one thing that's not going to change in content marketing, even as all these things evolve and get more sophisticated, https: otter.

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I mean, while AI is making plenty of news out there in more ways than one, there are still in depth, research backed articles on other things that are changing that AI cannot handle all by itself. It could be Andy Crestedina's blogger survey that's talking about the depth you need to have in your blogs today, how long they need to be, How long it should take you to write them.

So if you think about how you can write a blog in a mere seconds, quote unquote, write a blog in mere seconds using AI. Uh, that's not enough, and there's plenty of research to back it, and there's things that AI can help you do to flesh it out based on what Andy learned from all these businesses that are telling him what's working, what's not.

But that human element remains. Consistent and needed, plus you have all those other trends out there about how SEO is changing, how attribution software is becoming less effective, how brands might have to start relying on some of the organic marketing strategies of the 80s in order to overcome what technology can't track anymore.

And a lot of that is going to involve understanding humans, understanding people, and understanding the balance between using the technology and remembering people. We've had people on this show talk about ways to balance that out, and I could spend a whole show on all the different ways that I'm using AI to write content.

And a lot of it deals with organizational components of the content. Editing components of the content, research, but I'm never saying write this and write it like me and calling it good. When Andy Crestodina was on this program, he said, look at it as a tool and Dan says, look at it as a partner.

Dan: Sitting down with the AI and treating it as a partner and as Ethan Mollick says, a co intelligence.

There's no real downside to that if you are consistently in it and you're trying to create something that's new and interesting. You know, remember, you're starting with your own, with your own ideas or with your own kind of angle on, on what you're trying to do. Ultimately, it does have to be your idea and your point of view.

When you outsource all of that to the AI, you get dull, you get, you get something that's clearly not you and people understand that. Sure, you can get a draft out in 30 seconds, but is that ready? Is that ready to roll? Is that to go? You know, sometimes I think it would be good enough, right? If you mean, if you're just a product organization and you're doing a catalog and, and you just need the content up and, and just to get it done.

And it doesn't have to sit there and resonate with every single person. You know, you, you, you got to get the volume done. Sure. Then go ahead. But if you're a blogger or if you're a creator, or if you're a communicator, you know, who is really trying to build a reputation of a company, or if you are a marketer that is.

Trying to, you know, reach their audiences for much more. Relationship related issues, get them to be loyal customers ultimately, then you owe it to yourself and certainly to your customers and to your audiences to really focus in and make that yours, be real with the content. It would take me three days to do a long form before, and so, so three hours is a vast improvement, but, but you could do a 1500 word piece in three seconds, you know, if you're super lazy, that's what people are doing.

You know, I started to fiddle around with a few different tools and expand my own kind of content creation universe because, you know, now that I'm on my own, you know, and I have somewhat of a personal brand through my podcast and through the work I'm doing, you know, I want to reach people in the matter and means and in the time and place that they want to be reached.

Um, and sometimes it's not by podcast, sometimes it's by writing when I sit down and write a piece originally, I thought, okay, great. I have all this content. There's a couple of the tools have now become available that. Help me put all these things together and, you know, unlocked a couple of opportunities for me.

Great. I can make this happen in 30 minutes rather than a week. I could create, you know, a newsletter that would normally have taken me hours of research and, you know, I don't know how many hours or days of sweat writing because I'm a perfectionist and I could have cut and paste it and pop and copied it and just sent it out and it was okay.

You know, it wasn't bad. It was probably 80 percent there. But then I looked at it and I'm like, it's really, it's just not, not my voice. And, you know, it says delve. I don't want it to say delve, you know, start to put that in your prompts. Don't use the word delve, you know, create a list, a master list of words that, you know, Um, our giveaways and put it in the do not do sections like, you know, or when you see them, just keep telling your AI.

Nope. I don't want to explore anymore. You know, I don't want to see discovery. You know what I mean? You know, I do a lot of podcast notes with with AI. Um, and whenever the AI describes a conversation between two people. They delve, they dive in. That's something to really watch out for. And it, and it, it can really spark your creative juices more.

So once I got into it now, you know, realistically speaking, it's three to five hours for me to do my own newsletter. Could I do it in an hour? Sure. But I take three to five. And I wouldn't recommend or necessarily kind of suggest that that's what everybody has to do. Sometimes good enough is good enough, but you know, it's my own, it's my personal brand and I have a lot riding on it.

So I put in the extra time, but still five hours sure beats a week.

Scott: As you learn how to use AI, the creators of these AI programs are also learning new ways to help it help you. So one of the best things you can do going into next year, as you try to figure out ways to incorporate AI into your workflows.

is learn some of the basics. About prompts, and how to tell AI exactly what you want it to do, how to curate it to your needs, and then learn some of the ways that the programs improve themselves over time in order to help you customize its functionality.

Dan: When you want to make your content human, and you have to, Um, it's not just those word choices.

It's also the stories you tell. It's the actual kind of what is filling the vehicle? What is it that's human about it? And AI doesn't know what happened to you on the way to the coffee shop this morning, right? It just, it never will. And that's where you inject. The personal to a point. Um, and you know, by personal, I don't necessarily mean the deep emotional things that happen to you every day.

Although that could be the case, depending what you're writing about. I mean, you know, the stuff of your life that makes you human that, you know, only you see, only you experience as mundane as they may be. Roll those into your storytelling, right? And then, That makes things a lot more personal as well. So there's, there's a lot of ways to take the dull, bland stuff you get from AI.

If your prompting isn't good enough in the first place, you will get dull, bland stuff. But you know, if you can't head it off at the beginning, then you can certainly head it off at the end with good rewriting and good look, you know, good kind of, uh, revisions that Roll in your own experiences.

Scott: Now, while we're on the topic about learning AI and thinking about things like content, I think it's important to point out that as you go into next year, if AI is going to be part of your content process and you have content creators, let's just say in this case, we're obviously talking about writers since that's the most common thing right now, AI is going to have to be part of your approach to copywriting and content writing.

And what that means is. You're going to have to totally rethink what it means to be an effective writer in your business. It's not going to be enough to be able to say, Yes, I've written content for marketing. Or, I've written social media posts. Because there's all kinds of people out there that can write generic marketing stuff that they've seen other people write.

And by the way, a lot of that stuff is what AI sees online and uses to write. As a means to develop copy, not only do you need to have people who understand how to use AI, but they're going to have to also know how to take AI content and write it in a way that aligns with your brand voice and sounds human and sounds unique and is written in a way that resonates.

And if you leave it to generic marketing copy, whether it's written by a human or AI, your writers are going to struggle. And it's only going to get harder the more people are using these tools, because don't forget, the tools you're using, your competition's probably using it too. And if they're making the mistake of just letting it write generic stuff or stick to generic copy, you're missing an even bigger chance to differentiate yourself.

But that's just if we keep it in the context of competition. What we really want to do, more than anything, is make a connection with our audience, whether they're B2B or B2C. There's a lot of content clutter out there when it comes to copy, so you have to have writers who know how to evolve that into something human and meaningful.

Dan: Some of it is, is like mechanics and tactics and like tips and tricks, like look out for these words and change these words, right? And almost anybody can, can learn that and certainly kind of have a checklist and check your content against it. And that's a good step. I think that there's going to be a gradual or even kind of greater separation and forgive the, forgive my expression here between the wheat and the chaff in some ways.

And I'm, you know, I'm not trying to make a value judgment about people, but I am saying that some people are far more skilled at writing than others and have a much more critical eye or a much more editorial eye. And I'm not referring to creative writing. I mean, I'm speaking mostly for business. There is a talent or a skill level that That's necessary to work with the AI that you have and work with the content that you have and make it, make it sing, um, or from the, or write from scratch and make it sing.

And if you're a mediocre writer, you know, if you just used to writing mundane, dull corporate stuff that You know, you've never really pushed the envelope. You could have gotten by for a long time. I think for even now, like, okay, fine. I'll just write. A lot of people don't like to write. It's a drudgery job, but great writers who understand how to work together with AI to make themselves superior writers, I think will, will shine in the coming year or years versus You know, the mediocre who can be replaced and the terrible who can skill themselves up to be mediocre with the help of AI, but can also, but could also be replaced, you know, and maybe they'll find a different writing role, like rather than being in marketing or in communications where you have to be persuasive and tell stories, maybe they'll move over into technical writing or, you know, doing, which, by the way, can probably taken up by AI for the most part.

Anyway. Or just, or just shift into editing, you know, or find a new job. I don't know. But I, I think now is the time for people who are really good writers and, or who have the potential to be great writers, to be that great writer. And along, alongside of the writing has to be critical thinking. And this ability to, to interrogate your content and to be inquisitive.

And that's also something that isn't always teachable, but if you get into the writing and you get into business writing, certainly into comms and marketing, that is something that you do pick up over time. Always ask questions, always ask questions. Most branded content, I mean, I don't think anybody's really paying much attention to branded content in general anyway.

For the most part, the great content that I'm seeing and, you know, I'm a focus group of one, but the great content that I'm seeing is personal or it's written by. Uh, you know, by creators and by, um, bloggers or even some corporate writers who are like writing articles and it's not branded content, but writing thought leadership for their organization.

So that's where the good stuff is. Excellent writing skill and, you know, with, uh, with the ability to, to write. Pilot AI and talk to AI and converse with AI and think innovatively, you know, that's a potent formula for success. I think, um, in the next year.

Scott: Now, one of the fun things that goes into this obviously is experimentation. There's not only all kinds of new AI programs that are coming out. I feel like every other day, but the existing and the most popular AI programs are also fine tuning their functionality as well. Content marketers that are using these tools.

are beginning to share their insights on which ones they think are better at doing certain things over others. Some of my colleagues, and me included, have made the argument that if you are writing copy, and you want more of a humanized feel from a writing standpoint, at least for a foundation, You're probably going to get a better first draft from Claude than you are ChatsheepET.

Claude

Dan: is by far the better, uh, writer for in depth content and for, for humanizing content. And it's even better now because Claude has just released, uh, I think just a couple of days ago, Um, this define your style feature in all of the platforms, you could upload, you know, a document that you've written and tell the I to write in this style.

But Claude is a very has a particularly good, um, way of doing that. And now you can upload it. So it's there for it's there. Always. I can upload a couple of my newsletter items. For example, I'll call it newsletter style. And now whenever I go to Claude and I want Claude to write something for me, I will choose the newsletter style and that's the voice and the style that we use.

Um, and it'll come really close. It'll get very close to, to me. I will always need to get in there. And fix it up before, like if I was using chat GPT and I fed it the same information with the same prompt and asked it to write a 800 word post and I did the same thing with Claude, the 800 word post from Claude would be 80 85 percent there.

The 800 word post from chat GPT would be maybe 60 or 70 percent there. So still good. Still good start. But not nearly there. Um, with the custom styles, it might even be up upwards almost as not at 90%. Um, now with cloud, depending on what I feed it, you know, it's all about the information you put in.

Google's notebook. L. M. is a wonderful tool where you could create what they're calling a notebook, but it's essentially, you know, A mini GPT, a mini LLM, sorry, a mini large language model that is entirely focused on a set of resources that you give it up to 50 resources for each notebook. But I've created a notebook, for example, for my podcast and the sources in that notebook, I've uploaded the transcripts and notes for 20 of my podcast episodes.

And that's now the source of all the content that comes out of that notebook LM. So what I'll do is I'll prompt the notebook LM to better understand some of the insights that have come across through my podcast without having to go through all of the transcripts myself. I'll just say, you know, tell me what my guests have said.

About the future of communications, you know, just to be generic and it'll come out and pull out five or six different quotes from the podcast. And I'll say, I'm sure other people have, have said some things about future communications. Can you dig deeper into the transcripts? Sure. And it does. So, you know, you, you play with it.

And then, uh, the content that it puts out is more like outlines or, or kind of, you know, it's not really stylized. Then you can take that content and drop it into chat, GPT or cloud, and use that as your. Baseline to create whatever you want to create next, right? With, with that as a source, I think you're always trying to find different tools and work across different tools and create your own workflows that work best for your own ultimate needs.

And the more tools that are out there, the more kind of opportunities there are to. To find these shortcuts or, or new opportunities to repurpose and, or, or purpose your content in the first place.

Scott: And I guess if we look at the last couple of years as the early experimentation phases of AI, I feel like we're going into this next year with a lot more familiarity and better ideas. And because we've all had a chance to try different things and learn different things, You have those who have completely immersed themselves in AI, and those are going to be the people that are really helpful if you're just getting started with AI in 2025.

And Dan's already made the decision that he wants to be one of those people that helps businesses merge marketing, communication, and AI into a business strategy.

Dan: Yeah, it's interesting. I'm on my, my entrepreneurial journey, um, for the first time in many years. And I mean, if you haven't figured it out so far, I'm always talking about asking questions and taking a critical eye to things.

So leaning into the curiosity, leaning into the idea of critical approach to things, you know, I've started inquisitive communications focused really right now on AI enablement, um, helping, you know, Comms and marketing teams to really grasp AI to understand the things that we're talking about today, uh, to create better workflows, even to learn it from the basics on up, um, and, you know, figure out ways that they can incorporate AI into their work and just make their work better.

Um, I just bring more AI to the table, uh, when it comes to doing comms work, whether that's content strategy or, you know, For com strategy in general, things like this, um, with AI at my side is an incredibly powerful way to really bring a business strategy into the communications conversation. And I've developed my own frameworks and my own process for really repurposing and creating content from, from legacy content and breathing new life into what you have.

So it resonates and relates better to your audiences. And I love that work. It's so much fun. And, you know, you'd be surprised at how many people just sort of have all this content laying around in their closet, you know, metaphorically speaking, and, and think their, it's time has passed and there's nothing you can do with it.

Well, believe me, you can dust it off now, um, because you can do a lot with it with the advantages of additional research that is all AI powered with notebook LM and with perplexity and tools like this. It's, it's almost infinite possibilities for what you can do.

Scott: Okay. Let's revisit some key takeaways from today's episode. Dan referenced what Mark Schaeffer calls the pandemic of dull content because it has emerged from companies generating generic AI content without proper human oversight. Risking damage to customer relationships and brand reputation. As AI tools become more widespread, companies relying solely on AI generated content risk blending into the background and losing their distinctive voice.

Content workflows that skip human refinement and storytelling miss the opportunity to build genuine audience connections, even if the AI output seems good enough. The solution lies in treating AI as a partner rather than a replacement. www. microsoft. com While AI can generate quick drafts, quality content requires human creativity, personal experiences, and thoughtful refinement.

Content creators who thrive are those who skillfully collaborate with AI to enhance their work while maintaining authenticity and unique perspectives. Different AI platforms might offer distinct advantages. For example, Claude typically produces more humanized writing compared to ChatGPT. Allowing teams to choose tools that match their needs.

New features like Clod's Define Your Style and Google's Notebook LM are enabling better customization to match specific brand voices and content needs. Looking to 2024, the winners in content marketing will be those who find the right balance between leveraging AI's capabilities, while preserving human elements that make content authentic and engaging.

I will have links to Dan on the show notes for this episode, including to his LinkedIn profile, his website, which is be inquisitive. com. That's B like the word B dash inquisitive. com. And I'll also have a link to his podcast, which is called the Trending Communicator Podcast. If I can help you stand out or make more meaningful connections with your audience through humanized and communication focused content, you can reach out to me at scott at scottmurrayonline.

com or just fill out the contact form on that website scottmurrayonline. com. I'd like to thank Dan Nessel for joining us on the show today and thank you for joining us on the content brief.